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Dog Dish 01
2, Redux
—
Titles
With
special
guests
Buumi, Kenzo, and Turbo
[Note: This transcript was created by an automated process. It’s been spot-checked, but the
system that created the text breaks sentences in the wrong place all the time. Please accept
my apologies, and feel free to reach out if you fi nd something that warrants more careful
attention to help it make sense.]
Arf! Pup Aechus here with The Dog Dish, a paw’d-cast all about puppy play and the humans
behind the hoods.
No matter where you live in the English-speaking world, you probably have at least one pet-
play contest that represents your area. From regional contests like Southernmost Puppy and
NEPAH, to city-level competitions like Cincinnati Critter and state-level contests like Oregon
State Pet, to national contests like Puppy Belgium…or France…or Italy, there are tons of
contests designed to fi nd the pet-play enthusiasts who best represent the image of a
particular geographic space. Many of these contests are shifting from pup-only to more
inclusive approaches, with, for example, the NEPAH and Cincinnati contests I just mentioned
switching from Northeast Pup and Handler to Northeast Pet and Handler and from Cincinnati
Puppy to Cincinnati Critter this year alone. Anyway, we have a TON of titles in our worldwide
community, and in this episode, we’ll take a deep dive into what they are, what they do, and
why people should (and shouldn’t!) run for them.
First, let me start with a quick disclaimer for some honest realism. If you’re new to the scene
or unfamiliar with pet play or regional, Leather, or bar titles, you probably hear all this talk
and think it sounds like I’m talking about pageants: Miss America, Miss Georgia, Miss Universe,
etc. And you’re somewhat correct. This is controversial for me to say—and we’ll get into that
controversy in a bit—but the contests we’re talking about in this episode
are
similar in many
ways to the pageants we’ve all heard about. And for another less-than-flattering hot take,
these contests provide an evening’s entertainment for the local audience—they’re a show. And
t
o be fair (and even more critical), they can also become a distraction and a resource drain,
sometimes diverting attention and energy away from efforts to build up the communities they
represent.
But just like anyone who competes in a beauty pageant will get all flustered and defensive if
you suggest the event is “just” a pageant or “just” a show, folks in the pet-play and broader
Leather communities also get defensive about our titles. These titles represent more than
they seem to at fi rst glance, and they can hold a great deal of meaning, value, and history for
the communities that host them. In short, title contests are complex and imperfect, and
nobody you’ll hear from in this episode claims they are anything else. But titles are also ever-
present and to one extent or another, kind of a big deal. So they’re worth spending some time
on in order to better understand them.
To help me do that, I spoke with someone you heard from in the previous episode: Pup Turbo.
Turbo: My name is Turbo. I’m International Puppy 2016, Northwest Puppy 2016 because
years are weird, 2015 IPC Best in Show.
From here on the East Coast, I chatted with Kenzo
Kenzo: It’s the one and only Kenzo, Mr. Eagle NYC of the Twenty Twenty-Two! Also, I am
the fi rst person of color to ever win the Northeast Puppy title.
I also barked at Puppai Buumi for a non-American perspective.
Buumi:
Hello. I’m Puppai Buumi. I’ve been a puppy since 2010. I was Pup UK 2018 and
Pup Europe 2019.
To everyone tuning in from Down Under, please accept my apologies for not representing you
here. I let these interviews sit too long already, and I wanted to get the episode out without
making it more complex. But if there’s an Aussie or Kiwi take on titles I should add as a
follow-up, please let me know.
And to the listeners in Latin America, hola, gracias, y lo siento. I’m afraid I don’t yet have
suffi cient connections in Latin countries to tell your story meaningfully and honestly. Again, if
I should follow up with more details on titles specifi cally in your spaces, please reach out.
But for now, I’d say there’s enough to discuss just looking at American and European contests.
So with that, let’s dig in.
A minute ago I suggested that title contests are, to some degree or another, like a beauty
pageant. There’s another major form of contest that might also have come to mind: The
Westminster or American Kennel Club dog shows. These international competitions show off
actual canines to judge the best of each breed, or the best in show, and all that. These
contests, too, bear some resemblance to the title events we’re discussing in this episode. In
fact, back when the International Puppy Contest existed for human pups, it featured an
obstacle course, where human pups had to show their agility and obedience to their handlers.
It looks like IPC is making a comeback soon, so let’s start there with pup Turbo.
Aechus:
Actually, I I I will start with a question that I'm curious about regarding the IPC
reboot.
Do you know from this vantage point whether it's going to look more like
your, you know, Westminster Dog show contest or leaning more toward the
Miss
America style for lack of a better like way to explain this because I remember
when I PTC and IPC merged, one of the concerns and one of the the things that we
saw kind of work its way out over a span of a few years was that the contest style
was very very different between those two and I'm just
w
ondering if if you know
whether that's been addressed or is going
t
o be addressed.
Turbo: Well, yeah IPTC had more of the Westminster Dog show style of of ring
performance.
Uh, whereas IPC had
d
evelop into more of a stage show
t
ype of
thing.
Which I don't know if that was intended or not.
It's just kind
o
f the direction
that puppies took it.
How that will play out for
t
hen you know IPTC the reboot
,
I am not
e
xactly sure.
I
believe if I remember correctly at the last contest there was the option of doing
either.
You could do a ring show or you could do like a stage style show.
Yep, the
important thing was that.
Who the contestant is as a puppy comes forth so the
judges and the audience can see
,
OK
, w
hat are the elements of this person that
makes them a puppy or what makes them a good representative of this community
and that's up to the puppy to fi gure out
, y
ou know
,
what is what does that mean?
Uhm, what do they want to show of themselves?
I really enjoyed the ring portion that I did when I
r
an for IPC.
But I also enjoyed
the stage performances that I did for other contests
.
It
’
s all fun.
And it all has
t
he
opportunity to represent who I am.
But as far as what it
’
s
g
oing to be I, I think
a
s far as I know right now
, t
hey
’
ll have
—
the puppy
w
ill have the opportunity to choose
h
ow they present themselves?
There’s more to the American contests, for sure, but let’s pounce on Buumi for a bit to
discuss the differences between American and European contests in general. One of the
biggest differences is that in America, contestants are scored by judges and those scores
determine a winner. In Europe, these events are usually called “elections” instead of
“contests” because the audience votes on their favorite competitor, and those votes
contribute to the scoring. I’ll let Buumi explain.
Buumi: And and yeah, I think I think you're uh, I think you there is an element of public
voting.
So so I've got a couple of examples so I when I competed for
P
uppy Europe
the fi rst time. So this was February 2018. I was up against one of
m
y friends who
i
s
very popular on Instagram and has got
tens
of thousands of followers and it really
made me worry.
It's like, oh, we're doing this online voters, but I I've got like
maybe a few 100 and he's got a few 1000.
So I kind of I don't feel that's bad.
Then it was
explained to us that that was just a,
uh, a bit of fun, and there was a kind of like a a congeniality prize off the back of
that for for kind of winning the
public vote
.
The consensus around elections in Europe are very much that you you have to be
there in person to vote and so that will mean that anyone who turns up to the
event to watch it can have a say it ranges.
Between I'd probably say 10
%
and 30
%
of the overall score that influences who
gets
elected
.
And and there have been some elections where that that fi gure is higher,
so the the very fi rst election that I was ever a judge at.
It was a 50
-
50 split, 50 percent, 50
%
judges and 50
%
contestants, and I'm not going
to say which which contest it was, but
t
here was only two candidates as well, so it
was it was literally the fi rst time they've done an event and they were. They
thought, oh, 50
-
50 sounds good.
But the out of the two candidates, one had a real drive and determination to want
to do well and to kind of promote pop play.
The other one was he was very pretty.
He was like
, o
h, can I take him back to
m
y hotel room pretty.
Uhm, and and so the judges were all behind
t
he one that kind of wanted to do well
for the community, but the audience were all behind the the pretty one.
And and in the end, the pretty
one won
by I think was about fi ve votes. They they
recounted it three times because it
w
as that close
.
And then in the end, the the
pretty
one won
and did nothing.
And they, uh, their handlers said
, r
ight, you've got
the title
b
ut you, yeah, you're not
going anywhere.
And
the organizers of the the contest were so disappointed
. It’s like,
you kind of
wanted you to be like a a focal point for the community to to kind of show people
what play
i
s about and and so that so they learned a very harsh lessons from that.
But it also kind of was my fi rst experience.
It was quite impactful to see how other
contests
run.
A
nd as I say. Nowadays, I think there was a an election recently
where I think 30
%
of the public vote went towards it because there's been a lot of
public outcry that it was very cloak and dagger behind the scenes.
We don't know
how these people get elected.
Is it favoritism?
Is there kind of is there favors
involved with the judges?
So I think any or any election needs to be kind of transparent with the kinds of
sections, and I think most events will have at least 50
%
of the the scoring will be
the interviews and and how well the contestants can put their case across as to
why they should be
a titleholder
.
Aechus: Does that usually involve speeches?
Buumi: Uhm yes.
So the the kind of the the standard make up of elections in Europe will be that
there is a meet
’n’greet, s
o the the contestants can meet the crowds
. T
here will be
an introduction and an introduction speech from the contestants to kind of tell the
audience who they are and what they're about and what they want to achieve.
And then.
Formats change
year-on-year
, so sometimes you might have an
obedience
, s
ometimes you might have a kind of a like a a show where you kind of
have to follow commands from a handler and there may be instances where you
have to have prepped something in advance for for raffle to go towards the travel
fund
.
T
he elections I've been to in America, they did that when they did our boxes that
they went up for silent auction and the creativity and the the the creativeness of
people that could kind of make the effort put in these boxes was so good and and
then obviously the interview is is is the biggest kind of
o
ut of it
a
ll
.
And
performance
,
or I think in in America they're called fantasy segments
?
Aechus:
Fantasy scenes or that sort
o
f thing
?
Yep.
Buumi: Yeah.
And so so we we have performances or fantasy scenes here in in Europe, and
they're the best part of
t
he
thing
for me.
And I think that's the one part where you can really tell if the audience is behind
the
pup
, because a good fantasy scene and you you be able to feel the energy
f
rom
the audience and so
y
eah, so 50
%
is is kind of more or less the interview and then
the other 50
%
is split up between
p
ublic vote
,
the country perform the deformers
the presentation and any obedience or kind of discipline segments that they have
to do.
Aechus: Have you seen any contests where there's the obedience section
and
a fantasy
scene
?
O
ver here
i
t's usually either
/
or.
Buumi:
Y
es
,
I have
. So
let's have
a think
.
So when I was elected for the UK and also for
Europe, we did a an obedience and we also did a performance.
So I think I think
they were scored about 10
-
15
%
for
e
ach
. T
he obedience was was
—
I think this is something that
w
e've we've probably moved away
f
rom in the last
couple of years is
the obedienc
e—
it kind of
i
t's more geared towards the
, w
hat can
this person deliver as a as a title holder?
What can they represent?
And I would like
to see us get back to more of the the kind of the roots of play and my
performances that I've I've done for the UK and Europe.
They were always
, t
his is a
performance about being a puppy title holder.
So therefore I want to be
a
puppy
while I'm in the perform
ance
.
So so that when I when I do a performance, I always
make sure that
I'm kind of
,
I'm in
pup
mode or there's a transition between me
being non
-pup and pup
.
Whereas others will come on, no Dell, so the the the last election that we've we've
just had in Europe we had
someone dress up members of the audience and
themselves in shiny lycra and dance on the stage like this tool.
So it was really
trippy
, b
ut for some strange reason that one
p
opped straight into my head.
But yeah, we've had stripteases.
We've had singers
. W
e
’
ve had proper
performances.
We've got performances
that
tell a story.
There are there are kind
of quite hard
-
co
re
performance.
I've I've I've seen a couple where they've come out to kind of electronic dance
music, and there's kind of like there's a seat between a handler and a puppy and
then sex toys involved and they get thrown around on the stage and after effect.
They're they're quite
—i
t
’
s like
,
wow.
One one of my of the people that I
judge
a couple of years ago
, t
hey did a
k
ind of
like a lip sync, but it was kind of like acting out
a
scene that was really good.
Yeah yeah, the the the, the, the the reason why the performance is my favorite is
because you really get to kind of see inside the mind of the the kind of puppy and
it tells you a lot more about their personality than you
p
robably get
in
the
interview or the the kind of the the presentation.
We’ve heard a lot about what these contests entail. But we’ve not said much about the
contestants themselves. I wanted to hear about motivations. Kenzo has held various titles
continuously over the past four years (a convention title, a local bar title, and a regional
puppy title that stretched two years due to COVID). I asked why he ran for all those contests.
Kenzo: So I ran for my titles for those those titles because. I didn't see people who look
like me in spaces and that represent
m
e
,
like a leather
ABDL kinkster
. I didn't see a
lot of that. And a quote that resonated resonates with me is be the change you
wish to see in the world and people who always. Told me no, I was just like, OK,
that's the number. And what's going to happen is my yes is gonna be so bigger than
your no. That is gonna radiate from the world. So I applied for those titles to show
not only myself, but to show others that there are people like me that could hold
those positions and work and provide the service. And it's not just about the title,
but it's about providing. A space for all of us to be one.
Aechus: And so if someone else were to come up and they're like I'm thinking about running
for a title, should I run? For a title, what advice do you have?
Kenzo: I say go for it. I 100
%
go for it. It could be fun. If you're willing to put up. If you're
willing to put the work in and. Be the representation for your community, then,
then go for it like I never thought I could. The be the
Kenzo
that I am today, where
I am like. Traveling around the. Countries
and
doing and teaching
and
educating
and hosting things. I'm in a position now where I could look at my own
self
as my
own role model because I never used to look at myself as a role model. But being a
titleholder
s
howed me what it would. Look like for me if I was. To be my own role
model
.
Aechus: That's interesting. So you you ran for these titles because you wanted to see
Someone Like You in those
positions
? And then after you got the titles, you
realized, oh, this is what I could do in these positions.
Kenzo: Yeah. Oh yeah.
It was. It was like. Yeah, even now thinking
a
bout it I I sometimes
would sit down and I'm just like, damn, I did a lot. But it it it doesn't. Even feel
like a lot because. What I love is just being around my community and being
around the people that I love and just seeing their faces and meeting a lot. Of new
people come growing up, I didn't like I have friends, but I didn't have a lot of
friends. So to have a community of people that. I can just, like, hang out with and
talk and. Be authentically 100
%
myself and not hide even a percentage of who I
am, I feel. Yeah, I owe it so much to them to provide a space and to utilize my my
platform to give them that.
Aechus: Yeah, that makes sense. So
you
had two years with a puppy title and you've had a
little title and a bar title and you've run for an international leather
title
.
H
ow
were those different or what makes a puppy title special
?
Kenzo: Honestly, it's it was all in the matters of the work I did each year that made it
impact a little bit different. One thing that I have very. Hard time saying is no. Me
personally and uhm, I. I've learned that it's OK to say no, but most of the times I do
say yes because of the satisfaction that
it
provides for me, especially when I see.
Someone that's like overloaded has a another extra hands and say OK, where else
do you need to need to be or where else does this need to be placed so I can
handle that? You go do what you gotta. I I I. I love the service. It's for me, it's
always been about the service. I know for a lot of titleholders, they love the
attributes and the traveling and all those, all the good stuff, which is great too,
because that's phenomenal and fabulous in its own right. But the service. That as a
titleholders if you give yourself to that person to provide service, if that makes
sense then. Things I feel like for me in personal experience that it becomes so
much worth everything.
Aechus: More rewarding?
Kenzo: Yeah, yeah.
Aechus: Do you have any, I don't know, warnings that you would offer people as they were
starting to run? I mean, I I know that being enthusiastic and supportive and a yes
man is totally your vibe, but I'm wondering if there's any reservation or hesitation
you would have. Of that, you would offer to say, you know, under these
circumstances you might not want to run or here are some cautions to warn you
about if you're thinking of running for a title. Anything come to mind?
Kenzo: I don't know, honestly, honestly, I know from my personal experience. For out out of
three years straight being a title holder, one thing that I know that I need to work
on better is taking care of myself and and if you're a person that neglects that and.
Never have providing yourself really stuff care and what does that look like? Take
the time to provide yourself with that stuff care before you actually like
step
out
and go do things because it's. It's a lot of energy. It's a whole lot of energy and you
get burned out. Real real quick. And know that? Uhm. Everyone is on your side. And
everyone is there. To cheer you. On and not taking anything negative of you. So I
think to answer your question is if you're a person that. Is not very energy driven or
not very about like community. Like it may not be the thing for you. Who knows? It
could. It could probably bring out so much joy. To your heart, it's changed my life.
Being a title holders changed my life completely. So I have a lot of positive things
to say about. Being a title holder.
Aechus: Yeah, the the one. Thing that I consistently hear from everyone is
—
if not the it's
changed my life thing, defi nitely the I grew so much during that year or I I've
become a different person or a better person or I got to know myself better or
something like that during the. And so there is a ton of growth opportunity
involved. And I think that goes hand in hand with what you just said that if
someone is contemplating running, they need to make sure that they've got
themselves kind of taken care of because it's going to be a rough year and it's going
to take a lot of energy out of them and if they're not running, you know, full tilt.
Right now, if they've got some problems that they need to work through. Adding a
title on top of that is going to make it so much worse. You need to get that kind of
wrapped up fi rst so that you're bringing your whole self to the contest and to the
year. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Kenzo:
You’re
the center of attention. You everybody. I know people. Love that, but
sometimes that gets too much. It gets too much. It's like y'all
bitches
better stop
looking at me right now. I
look
busted. This week is not giving
. M
y nails is not done.
Go look at her in the corner.
I cannot believe it, but I actually got Kenzo on record saying “don’t look at me”? I never
thought I’d see the day! Anyway, back to our discussion.
Kenzo:
A
lot of people
,
Because they see the glory and the whole, entire oh we we worship
you and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. I could go ahead and run for the title and this
will be the thing, not not necessarily knowing that it may not be the space for
them.
Aechus: The attention.
Kenzo: I like the challenge. Personally, I like to OK like for example, a lot of people told me
not to run for Mr Eagle. A lot of people told me when I was like, I'm thinking about,
uh, doing and there's just like no girl that's a white man's world. Don't do that
then. And plus you, plus you, you a bear, you. You you a. Copy bear and I was just
like, all right. Just like, OK, let me let me put myself
some
other place.
But then you realize sometimes. You just need to show people. That there's people
that can step up and be that one. That could just be like, OK, I could be that
person and I could step foot in the room and be different and
fuck shit
up. Like no
forever and. Doing that. Made it so much rewarding because it showed people how
open they can be and what it looked like for them. So yeah, you may have a lot of
people that they should not run for the title or should, but I always tell people go
for it. If you feel like you, if you feel confi dent in yourself to go for that title, at
least put yourself on the stage and go for it.
Why not? What's the worst thing they
could say?
“No!”
And even that, hey, you have next year.
Aechus: And and you got yourself in front of people and people know who you are now. And
so you have the ability to make more connections and to do what it is that you
want to do. Whatever you plan to do as a titleholder, you then do without the
bullseye on your back and show the world that you can still. Make those things
happen.
Let’s go back to Turbo for his thoughts on motivations.
Aechus: W
hat advice would you give if someone says like why?
Why should somebody run
?
What's the point of running for one of these contests?
Why do people do this?
Ah, your face.
Ha ha.
I wish there were a way
t
o get your face
t
o show.
It
spoke volumes.
Turbo: You know, usually when if someone comes up to me and I'm not real familiar with
who they are and they ask me, should I run to, you know, for a puppy title
?
I say
no.
If, if you're not sure, don't do it.
Go to a contest, watch what others do.
Talk to
other contestants.
Talk to
p
ast titleholders, see if this is something
t
hat you wanna
do
.
Obviously, we want every contestant to make the title their own do their thing.
You
know, if they're an educator, educate if they if they want to go out and just show
off puppy, do that.
But uhm.
It's a lot of work.
It's a lot of work.
It's a lot of money.
T
here's usually
some sort of travel fund, but it's not going to cover at all.
There's just not enough
there.
You know travel is so expensive now.
Why run for a title?
I can tell you why I did
i
t.
Aechus: That'll do.
Turbo: It was
h
onestly, the same reasons I've done a lot of things in my life and it's path
:
dependency.
My very fi rst puppy event with other puppies
, o
ther handlers was International
Puppy 2014.
Aechus: Jumped in the deep end.
Turbo:
So no lead-up. J
ump
ed
right into the fi re, which is kind of how
I tend to do things.
Uh, coming from North Florida at the time, I had not been able to fi nd other
puppies I had not been able to fi nd any sort of local community, so
I was moving
t
o
Portland to go to school.
I had bought the motorhome and planned it out so that I
was traveling
to Saint Louis for international puppy.
And so that was my fi rst experience with other puppies.
Yeah, jumping in the deep end
.
I remember my very fi rst
r
ealization walking into
that
s
pace
,
walking into the bar
o
n a Friday for the
social
and the meet and greet
and I was like why are these motorcycle dudes here?
Uhm, I had no concept of the the connection to leather culture and
didn't really
know what a Leatherman was and found it kind of scary.
I was just a dog and I don't
know about all this
s
tuff, in fact my very fi rst hood was a very simple neoprene
hood.
I went out of my way to not get leather 'cause I, you know, I I didn
’
t
k
now
about all that life.
But it took the weekend to get me hooked on leather and
b
eing
a
leather
person, so that was fi ne.
Like yeah I I went to this event and it was awesome.
Puppies were having fun.
I got
to be on all fours all the time and just run around and everyone appreciated my
energy.
They appreciated
h
ow puppy I was
.
And what I didn't know at the time was
that usually people don't go into full
h
ead space in a bar and there's reasons for
that.
Uhm, I didn't know that yet, so I was just all in.
As a result of me being all in and
as the result of me saying, yeah, moving to Portland.
Figaro had won that year.
And
him and his crew from the Pacifi c Northwest are like
,
you need to run for
Northwest puppy.
I'm like I'm not even there yet.
Mobile motorhome here.
I don't live in Portland yet
and they're like just need to run.
I'm like alright whatever.
So that was July by
e
arly August I had gotten
to
Portland, August 14th I was driving
to Vancouver, BC to compete in Northwest Puppy.
Here we go.
So I did and I did not win that year.
That was the year Kona
won
, but it got me
really excited for puppy contests and for being involved in that type of activity.
I
met so many people I became
f
riends with people during that event that I'm still
best friends with today and
j
ust the opportunity to
m
eet so many interesting
p
eople in the community.
Yeah, I was kind of hooked at that moment.
Aechus: What made you run?
W
hy do people run and if they if you have to ask, then don
’
t.
So you were encouraged to.
What was your motivation?
Turbo: I was encouraged
by…
Are we supposed to be honest here
?
Aechus: I mean, I'd prefer it.
Turbo:
Okay.
My motivation was to make people proud of me.
And that was largely my
motivation for doing a lot of things in my life.
Not a great thing.
Aechus: Interesting.
Turbo:
B
ut so I had all these new friends.
All these pillars of the puppy community that
were said you're a good puppy.
You should run for a
title. Okay.
But I really didn't
know what that meant.
I really didn't know the responsibility I was signing up for at
the time.
Now by the time I ran for Northwest puppy the second time
and won,
I had a
better idea of what I was getting into.
I had been friends with Figaro and a friends
with Kona for longer.
And I'd seen wha
t
other contestants
,
other
t
itleholders had to
do in order to, you know, fulfi ll them.
I saw what size shoes I
h
ad to fi ll.
And
I was
a bit more ready for it then.
Aechus: So so then so when when you ran for Northwest Pop 2015, what? What was your
motivation then? Was it the same the pride from others?
Turbo: A combination of things it was to make others proud of me to prove that I could do
it to myself.
Because, y
ou know,
I
lost the previous
year.
I'm like
, w
ell
fuck,
I
’
m
going back I'm gonna try to win this thing again.
You know I see how it's done
.
I
see
what the backstage
t
hing looks like
.
I know what the interviews are like, which is
actually the main part of the contest.
Most people don't see of those interviews.
And I had a better handle on and I'm like I can do this.
And honestly, the
requirements for Northwest puppy
?
Uhm, I was already doing all that stuff
.
I was
already going to the around the entire region
,
going to as many events as I could
and being the best damn puppy that I could be.
I was already doing educational stuff.
I was already teaching puppy stuff at
Portland State.
Why not?
Uh, and really for my title year as Northwest Puppy, I
didn't have to change a thing when I was doing.
I just kept on doing my thing.
But I had a patch on my back now and a lot more people wanted to know me so
, s
o
there's that.
Aechus:
I
t sounds like it gave you the opportunity to do what you were already doing, but it
gave you more support to do it.
Turbo: It gave me more support.
It gave me a more solid platform.
When people are
asking, you know well why should this person teach this class on puppy 101? What
are their qualifi cations?
Well, they're Northwest puppy 2016. Oh OK, OK yeah, so
they should know what they
’
re
d
oing then.
Yeah I did.
But the international contests are, well, it's a different level altogether, because
basically now you're doing all these same things.
Uh, visiting different
communities, visiting different areas
.
But it's international.
It's obviously it's a lot bigger and with a lot more time.
It's a lot more money, and I
discovered that what puppy was to me in the Pacifi c Northwest is not necessarily
what puppy is to everybody else in the
r
est of the world.
Or in the rest of the
